Europe vs America...?!
Question: Europe vs America!.!.!.!?
I once got into a particularly nasty debate regarding this subject on here - so i'm going to ask the question again, but will try and be a little more tactful
as a european (brit if you must not) - it's almost impossible to avoid the influence of americanisms in the media, and everyday life - and so it is hardly surprising to see the same thing happen in music as well
america- as a particularly young nation - missed out on the greater part of the european classical music scene - and has always had to be catching up
the only notable composers (imho anyway) presenting themselves at the very end of the romantic period, and the american 'greats' like Gershwin, have always seemed to border too closely on 'jazz' to obtain the greatly revered post of 'being on my iPod'
i simply find it hard to take the american composers seriously
i'm sure it's not simply out of snobbishness - i'm always up for a bit of cheese (Eine Kleine Nachtmusik springs to mind)
but when it comes to comparing the americans with their european predecessors - i feel they always leave something to be desired
i've always insisted that there's no such thing as an american opera - i realise many were written in the style of an opera - eg Porgy and Bess, but i have always felt that such works are more deserving of the title 'musicals' than opera comedia or even operetta - i suppose the same, could in theory be applied to my beloved G&S - who's works ARE opera, DAMN IT! and to hell with what my GCSE music textbook says - so perhaps i am applying a double-standard simply out of an underlying european sense of of anti-americanism!.!.!.
anyway - my question is - would my european brothers agree with my above musings, and how would you americans react to them
Www@Enter-QA@Com
as a european (brit if you must not) - it's almost impossible to avoid the influence of americanisms in the media, and everyday life - and so it is hardly surprising to see the same thing happen in music as well
america- as a particularly young nation - missed out on the greater part of the european classical music scene - and has always had to be catching up
the only notable composers (imho anyway) presenting themselves at the very end of the romantic period, and the american 'greats' like Gershwin, have always seemed to border too closely on 'jazz' to obtain the greatly revered post of 'being on my iPod'
i simply find it hard to take the american composers seriously
i'm sure it's not simply out of snobbishness - i'm always up for a bit of cheese (Eine Kleine Nachtmusik springs to mind)
but when it comes to comparing the americans with their european predecessors - i feel they always leave something to be desired
i've always insisted that there's no such thing as an american opera - i realise many were written in the style of an opera - eg Porgy and Bess, but i have always felt that such works are more deserving of the title 'musicals' than opera comedia or even operetta - i suppose the same, could in theory be applied to my beloved G&S - who's works ARE opera, DAMN IT! and to hell with what my GCSE music textbook says - so perhaps i am applying a double-standard simply out of an underlying european sense of of anti-americanism!.!.!.
anyway - my question is - would my european brothers agree with my above musings, and how would you americans react to them
Www@Enter-QA@Com
Answers:
Where do i start!.!.!.!.!.
although not a great classical listener nor an experienced opera critic i still think that classical music and opera should be left purely down to
the Europeans!.!.!. i am afraid "friends over the pond" being the USA; if your operas are not a mimic of what greatness we have here in Europe then the operas that are not are just some cheesy 1980s musical that you lot can call an "opera" or "operetta"!.!.!.!.
and American beer i must say even though i have no idea who the earl of Ainsdale is i must agree that American beer is disgusting
here is the list of alcohol producing country's and there forte;
Russia = vodka
Northern Europe = beer
Ireland = cider
UK (the empire)=whiskey, rum, gin etc!.!.
good day!Www@Enter-QA@Com
although not a great classical listener nor an experienced opera critic i still think that classical music and opera should be left purely down to
the Europeans!.!.!. i am afraid "friends over the pond" being the USA; if your operas are not a mimic of what greatness we have here in Europe then the operas that are not are just some cheesy 1980s musical that you lot can call an "opera" or "operetta"!.!.!.!.
and American beer i must say even though i have no idea who the earl of Ainsdale is i must agree that American beer is disgusting
here is the list of alcohol producing country's and there forte;
Russia = vodka
Northern Europe = beer
Ireland = cider
UK (the empire)=whiskey, rum, gin etc!.!.
good day!Www@Enter-QA@Com
I'm American and I can say Opera sucks!.!.!. No offense!.!.
America has never had to "catch-up" we've always been the leader in everything especially beer production!.!.!. Not that it matters to me!.!.!.
I'd like to move to Europe but only to talk like you guys!.!.!. Fun stuff!.!.Www@Enter-QA@Com
America has never had to "catch-up" we've always been the leader in everything especially beer production!.!.!. Not that it matters to me!.!.!.
I'd like to move to Europe but only to talk like you guys!.!.!. Fun stuff!.!.Www@Enter-QA@Com
I would have to disagree!. I'm a Brit and a European (we're not all glorious isolationists, thankfully!)!. While it could be argued that American opera per se has never quite found its feet, there are many extremely fine composers who have written music of the very highest quality!. Of course there is no American Baroque, Classical or early Romantic music to speak of (although some does exist), composers have made up for it since!.
Composers like Charles Ives and Carl Ruggles (and, to an extent, Sousa) 'enabled' American composers to be !.!.!. well !.!.!. American!
Among the American composers I hold in highest esteem include:
John Adams
Samuel Barber (whose opera 'Vanessa' might hold claim to one of the most successful examples of the genre)
Elliott Carter
Aaron Copland
John Corigliano
Paul Creston
Michael Daugherty
David Diamond
Charles Tomlinson Griffes
Howard Hanson (the 'American Sibelius'!?)
John Harbison
William Schuman
Eric Whitacre (his choral works, not his wind band stuff)
All of these have written music of the very highest quality which need make no apologioes to their European counterparts!.
Edit for C!.T!.
I'd have to take issue with you on the beer front - American beer = sweet, weak ****-water :-P!. When you come to Europe you will taste some REAL beer :-)Www@Enter-QA@Com
Composers like Charles Ives and Carl Ruggles (and, to an extent, Sousa) 'enabled' American composers to be !.!.!. well !.!.!. American!
Among the American composers I hold in highest esteem include:
John Adams
Samuel Barber (whose opera 'Vanessa' might hold claim to one of the most successful examples of the genre)
Elliott Carter
Aaron Copland
John Corigliano
Paul Creston
Michael Daugherty
David Diamond
Charles Tomlinson Griffes
Howard Hanson (the 'American Sibelius'!?)
John Harbison
William Schuman
Eric Whitacre (his choral works, not his wind band stuff)
All of these have written music of the very highest quality which need make no apologioes to their European counterparts!.
Edit for C!.T!.
I'd have to take issue with you on the beer front - American beer = sweet, weak ****-water :-P!. When you come to Europe you will taste some REAL beer :-)Www@Enter-QA@Com
First off I'm an American!.
I think there are plenty of first rate american composers from the classical and romantic era, Louis Moreau Gottschalk, Charles Ives, John Knowles Paine, Edward MacDowell, Anthony Philip Heinrich, Amy Beach, to name a few!.
I don't think of American composers as playing catchup with Europe but rather as being diverted in a different direction after the classical era!. Part of that was due to missing out on the European scene!. I've always thought of that as what allowed Earle Brown, John Cage, Merce Cunningham, Charles Ives, and Harry Partch to break away from tradition so easily!. They weren't clinging to the psychological baggage of Europe!. So it's only natural that they went off and did something different!.
Sidenote: I've thought about this more, and this Eurpoe vs!. America debate makes as much sense as criticizing a French composer for following in the steps of Debussy instead of Wagner!.Www@Enter-QA@Com
I think there are plenty of first rate american composers from the classical and romantic era, Louis Moreau Gottschalk, Charles Ives, John Knowles Paine, Edward MacDowell, Anthony Philip Heinrich, Amy Beach, to name a few!.
I don't think of American composers as playing catchup with Europe but rather as being diverted in a different direction after the classical era!. Part of that was due to missing out on the European scene!. I've always thought of that as what allowed Earle Brown, John Cage, Merce Cunningham, Charles Ives, and Harry Partch to break away from tradition so easily!. They weren't clinging to the psychological baggage of Europe!. So it's only natural that they went off and did something different!.
Sidenote: I've thought about this more, and this Eurpoe vs!. America debate makes as much sense as criticizing a French composer for following in the steps of Debussy instead of Wagner!.Www@Enter-QA@Com
I agree in part with your assertions: we are a relatively young nation, and have undoubtedly missed out on the larger scene of classical music involvement: that of opera in particular!. There are no great American operas in my opinion!.
But I think it's rather snobbish of you to otherwise take such an irreverent stance: you're missing out on a lot of great music!.
True, a lot of music in this country is influenced by jazz!.
However, some ragtime compositions, are genuine master-pieces: i!.e!., Joplin's "Maple Leaf" rag!.
Gershwin's "Concerto in F" and "Rhapsody in Blue", though greatly influenced by jazz, is nevertheless two other master-pieces!.
And if you are unable to appreciate at least some of the music of the following great American composers, then I indeed feel a profound pity for you:
Charles Ives, Aaron Copland, Charles Griffes, John Phillip Sousa, Samuel Barber, David Diamond, Irving Berlin, Richard Rogers, etc!., etc!.
Alberich
Www@Enter-QA@Com
But I think it's rather snobbish of you to otherwise take such an irreverent stance: you're missing out on a lot of great music!.
True, a lot of music in this country is influenced by jazz!.
However, some ragtime compositions, are genuine master-pieces: i!.e!., Joplin's "Maple Leaf" rag!.
Gershwin's "Concerto in F" and "Rhapsody in Blue", though greatly influenced by jazz, is nevertheless two other master-pieces!.
And if you are unable to appreciate at least some of the music of the following great American composers, then I indeed feel a profound pity for you:
Charles Ives, Aaron Copland, Charles Griffes, John Phillip Sousa, Samuel Barber, David Diamond, Irving Berlin, Richard Rogers, etc!., etc!.
Alberich
Www@Enter-QA@Com
A Englishman:
I partly agree with Del!.!.!.who points out that for America there was no progression from the Baroque - Classical and early Romantic periods!.
I think this is massively important and the key to understanding the apparent inferiority you speak of!.
Take 1820 in Europe and Vienna was the music capital of the world!.!.
Yet contrast that with America where it was quite literally the Wild West and about as different a culture as you could possibly wish for!.!.
Therefore it would seem, at least to me,totally unreasonable to expect such a nation in the space of a hundred years or so to suddenly start producing modern composers of the standard of say Sergei Rachmaninov who had a whole culture behind him which had been growing and developing such music since the time of Bach and before!.!.However America had a profound influence on many of the masters like Sergei above and others like Dvorak of course who found fresh inspiration on the shores of this new world!. Www@Enter-QA@Com
I partly agree with Del!.!.!.who points out that for America there was no progression from the Baroque - Classical and early Romantic periods!.
I think this is massively important and the key to understanding the apparent inferiority you speak of!.
Take 1820 in Europe and Vienna was the music capital of the world!.!.
Yet contrast that with America where it was quite literally the Wild West and about as different a culture as you could possibly wish for!.!.
Therefore it would seem, at least to me,totally unreasonable to expect such a nation in the space of a hundred years or so to suddenly start producing modern composers of the standard of say Sergei Rachmaninov who had a whole culture behind him which had been growing and developing such music since the time of Bach and before!.!.However America had a profound influence on many of the masters like Sergei above and others like Dvorak of course who found fresh inspiration on the shores of this new world!. Www@Enter-QA@Com